big government is that 12% of nondefense spending, discretionary spending which is -- that all -- the fbi and you know, the crazy center for genetics and npr -- >> jennifer: a lot of people don't like that stuff. >> right. >> jennifer: but they do like their mortgage deduction. they do like the child care tax credit. >> exactly. that's the vast majority. >> jennifer: isn't that redistributing wealth? >> it is funny. i did write this article partly because i want to the debunk this idea that just some of us are takers because in fact, we're all takers, right? i mooch. you mooch. mitt romney mooches. we're all moochers. everybody that works is a maker too. that's one thing that's really been disingenuous about pays income taxes. everybody pays through income taxes. >> jennifer: including mitt romney. he doesn't have earned income. he's got capital gains. >> exactly. a lot of people in the financial sector get -- special tax exemptions for carried interest. of course, we don't know whether mitt romney does. >> jennifer: he won't release his tax returns. it is such a fascinating discussion. p